Shawn O'Hara: Hello everyone. My guest today is Dr. Kyle Maynard. He is a licensed naturopathic doctor and co-owner of Horizons Holistic Health Clinic in Victoria, BC. He holds a Master of Science in Neuroscience from the University of British Columbia and a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine from the Boucher Institute of Naturopathic Medicine.

Dr. Kyle has a general naturopathic practice with an interest in mental health, pain medicine, and complex case management. He is a certified BioFlex Laser technician with advanced training in neurological and spinal conditions. In addition to his regular practice, he was an instructor at the Canadian School of Natural Nutrition for eight years, teaching biochemistry, nutrition for the brain, and research methods. He also served as an externship supervisor for nutrition students at the Pacific Rim College. Welcome, Dr. Kyle.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Thanks for having me.

Shawn O'Hara: So what does a naturopath do?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: We're trained in both conventional medicine and natural therapies. We're primary care providers in BC. So just like you'd go see your family doctor or a nurse practitioner, you could see us as the first contact. We're able to assess, diagnose, and treat patients. Like the medical system, we're also trying to make you better, but we do it a little bit differently. When you come and see a naturopathic doctor, we ask, why did you get sick? So it's a completely different approach to how we try to help people. It's a bit longer, not quite as quick of a fix, but it's something that helps us find the root of what's causing it.

So you have predictability and controllability of your condition, and then hopefully we can find something that's a little bit gentler and more natural to help you overcome whatever it is that you're going through.

Shawn O'Hara: That was my impression when I went to see you. The intake form was, shall I say, not just long, but not to scare anybody off, but detailed, getting into a good history.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: I always warn people, I say it's quite thorough and it's important to know you don't have to fill out everything. It's really important to fill out what's really pertinent to you.

Shawn O'Hara: And it can make one think that, oh, maybe this that happened many years ago could be having an impact on me now. So what made you get into this?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Unlike my colleagues, they usually have experience with naturopathic medicine at some point in their life. For me, it was a bunch of little things. I was exposed to things that just kind of pointed in that direction that I didn't know about at the time. So it was probably over a decade of little experiences and little gains of knowledge that brought me to this way of treating people. It makes more sense. I've always been interested in nutrition. I'd study the molecules in food and packaging and people would say, oh, this is processed and oh, this is a chemical and oh, these are preservatives. And I would ask, what are these preservatives? What are these chemicals? How bad are they? And so from my chemistry background, I'd pick a molecule every day and go learn what it was.

So, and what it does to the body and why it's in the food. For the most part, a lot of those molecules are there because you need them there. If you're going to have a shelf-stable orange juice, if you didn't have a silicone-based molecule in there, you'd have really foamy shelf-stable orange juice. I really wanted to go into research with all the research I was already doing. When I was doing my neuroscience, I was going to do a PhD in Hawaii, but while doing my master's, you get to see how research really works. The last thing that broke the camel's back was after one of our neuroscience classes, which was taught at the psychiatry department at UBC. They always had these lunch and learns for the medical doctors in the department. I remember one, they even named a building after him, he was coming in saying, we got these molecules from broccoli and we're throwing them on brain slices and we're seeing that the beta amyloid plaques that you'd see in Alzheimer's are getting dissolved.

So if you know any good food molecules, let us know and we'll throw it on a human brain. I'm going, oh my gosh, this is amazing. This is everything I studied. And I'm like, what are these molecules that he's looking at? And now what are the effects on their brain? It was fantastic research. What we were learning in the medical side was looking at drugs that made no physiological sense for their targets. But when you look at the food molecules and how they're affecting the brain, it made more physiological sense. That was more and more pushing me towards the natural side and less to the conventional side.

Shawn O'Hara: And then from there you decided to study and pursue that direction.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Yeah. I did a lot more research like, what is naturopathic medicine? What should I do? And I learned that they could do minor surgery. I watch a lot of documentaries. A big one for me was How to Treat Diabetes in 30 Days. They took people to a retreat and gave them whole foods and made them exercise every day. I love it because the results are very realistic. I said, wow, if we can help people with a diet and lifestyle and cure diabetes, that's fantastic. So you bet. I applied and somehow they let me in.

It was such a good show too. It was free on YouTube, How to Treat Diabetes in 30 Days. It's about an hour, an hour and 10 minutes or something.

Shawn O'Hara: Great. I'll see if I can add it to the show notes. So what do you love about what you do?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: It's the variety and the flexibility. Because I own my own business, I'm not constrained to anyone else's schedule or rules. We have our own schedule and our own rules. There's just so much. What's cool is I could have a day where I'm doing an adjustment on one person and then I'm talking traditional Chinese medicine language to another person. Another one I'm reviewing their conventional lab results or their surgery reports and trying to figure out a good plan for them. Another person we're doing counseling because they have stress. Another person we're treating their foot. Another person we're dealing with sinusitis. Another person we're writing a prescription for some antibiotic. It's so variable and it's usually tapping into every little area of my brain at the same time. So if it's true that by using your full brain you're not going to get any memory issues, I'm on the right track, that's for sure.

Shawn O'Hara: That's a good profession to go into for that. So for people not familiar with naturopaths, how would you differ from a GP, a regular family doctor?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: The biggest difference is we can spend a lot of time with patients. We could sit there and have a chat for an hour. Sometimes it's that last second out the door little piece of information that allows me to solve the case. I always wonder how medical doctors do it. It's incredible. But the time and then the approach, we're always looking at how we can, what is the cause of what's making them feel the way they're feeling, and what is the most effective way we can treat them.

I like to follow something called, and generally the whole profession follows, something called therapeutic order, which is seven stages. I like to start at number one and make sure that they have foundations of health. They have no barriers to health. They have energy. The most naturopathic thing I'll tell you is it's the life force, the vital force, the Qi, they have to have it. Number four is structural integrity. We have to make sure they're moving, and if they want to run a marathon, that their knee is better. Number five is where we look at natural therapies. So even before I look at doing the most natural thing possible, I'm still addressing foundational health things. Six is where medications come from. Unfortunately, the way the system works is that's the treatment right away. Number seven is what we want to avoid at all costs, which is surgery, chemo, radiation. I'd add electroconvulsive therapy into that because it's pretty invasive. There's an order and the best time to come see us is when you're starting to question whether or not you need a medication, because then we can start through the therapeutic order before you get to the medication.

Shawn O'Hara: Getting into maybe not the standards of care, but the regulations. Who regulates you? Is it the federal or provincial, like the Ministry of Health?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: So we have, across the board, there's a big umbrella called the Health Professions Act, and it regulates all colleges. There are some rules in there on how we're supposed to conduct ourselves. Within that, we have our college and our college recently just changed. It used to be the College of Naturopathic Physicians, but they just merged us with the massage therapists, the chiropractors, and others. Now we're called the CCHPBC, College of Complementary Health Practitioners of BC. So we're all on one big team now regulated by the same group.

We have our subsets. All have our own criteria for continuing education and our scope of practice is different for each of us, but we're all under one big college now.

Shawn O'Hara: Which is a separate college that doctors and nurses and dentists would be under.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Yeah, so the doctors are in the College of Physicians and Surgeons. There's the dental college and then there's another Allied Health college that has all the occupational therapists, the physiotherapists, radiate radio techs, that sort of stuff.

Shawn O'Hara: You know what prompted the government to do that?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Yeah, we had like 20 colleges or something. Ideally under a health act, you should have one college. It's the most cost effective if you have one big regulating body and everyone gets reported to the same board. We had a guy come in from Europe to evaluate our whole college system. He tried to narrow it down to five, went from 20 to something crazy, like 18 colleges down to five. I think it's financially feasible, so I think it's for efficiency, for cost savings, and hopefully the main goal of these colleges is to protect the public. So there's probably some public safety reasons in there too.

Shawn O'Hara: How do you think it does on the public safety part?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: There are some big rules, like so you're not misleading people. The biggest crackdown recently was all the advertising and website stuff. We're not allowed to have testimonials and for a lot of people they're trying to base their, you know, "Hey, come see me. I'm good. These are all my testimonials." But you're not actually allowed to do that. You can't say, because one, you can't vet if they're real or not. So anyone can just make up a bunch of testimonials. Two, you can't say, you can't say, "I'm the best naturopath. I'm the cheapest naturopath. I'm the quickest naturopath." You can't set yourself above or beyond anyone else in your profession. Supposed to be about the same. What the college is trying to protect people from is, for example, medical treatments that they don't need. So they don't want you advertising in a way that you're promoting health treatments that someone doesn't need. They're just coming in because it's cheap. So they're trying to protect the public that way. And then there's a lot of restrictions on the language and the therapies that you can do or you're not doing any treatments that don't have any research behind it. So there are rules with that too. Even the supplements and stuff that we use all have to be approved in Canada. They have to have NPN numbers, that sort of stuff.

Shawn O'Hara: That lack of testimonials, it must have a huge impact on the ability to market.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: We can still do ads. We just can't put testimonials on our website. The thing about our medicine, it's very individualized and just because I helped one person with one condition doesn't mean I can help you with your condition. So I don't know what the point of having the testimonials in my office is anyway. Because I could see a million people with ADHD, and they're all different and some people are going to get better, and unfortunately some people aren't. So I can't guarantee that. Because they have a testimonial that says things are good, I can help the next person. So, yeah.

Shawn O'Hara: Yeah, wouldn't that kind of be like the terms and conditions, results are not guaranteed, but if they can see, because one of the great advantages with testimonials is if people can see people like them, so this is the condition I have, this is the life circumstance, my demographic, whatever that I have. You've helped two people like this. Maybe you could help me.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Yeah, so testimonials and there's not good testimonials. There's a really nice format that can do that. Like if you can describe a problem, a very specific problem that no one has been able to solve, but here comes Dr. Kyle, he took a different approach and he was able to solve your problem, and now I have my life back type thing. Like that's a great format to do. The other gray area there too is photos, before and after photos. For confidentiality reasons, but also you could just Photoshop it now.

Shawn O'Hara: So a well-structured, so requesting a well-structured Google Review or even a video testimonial would be good. Because the issue with a lot of Google reviews is people just say, "Yeah, I went to see Dr. Kyle, he helped and now I feel great." Doesn't say anything.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: The other rule is we can't promote, we can't say, "Oh, if you leave us a Google Review, we'll give you 50% off your next treatment." We can't promote that either. It has to be fully organic. So we have a few good ones on there. We got some really good organic Google reviews, which I'm really, really proud of.

Shawn O'Hara: So you're regulated by the college and you've just explained a lot of how that impacts your marketing. Any other either voluntary or mandatory regulations that you fall under?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: No, that's the main one. We do have associations that we're a part of too. Unlike the college, which is trying to protect the public, our associations are trying to support and protect the naturopaths. We have the BCND, the British Columbia Naturopathic Doctors Association, and we have the Canadian Association of Naturopathic Doctors and they're constantly working with the government to improve our scope of practice, help manage the drugs that we can and can't prescribe, that sort of stuff. We just found out that we're able to, like, we can do prescriptions, we can do diagnosis, we can do lab tests, but now apparently we can do ultrasounds and x-rays.

Of course, the business side of things. We have to have our business license and we have to have insurance and stuff. That's also criteria from the college. Malpractice insurance, all that.

Shawn O'Hara: You've got the Saanich Municipal bylaws because that's where you're located. Do those affect you at all?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: No. I get the nice firefighters come by every year checking our fire extinguishers and stuff. We have to get that charged up all the time. Have to buy our business license every year. Nothing too restrictive on the Saanich side. We are located in a beautiful building, so, and we have a nice landlord. It's nice when everything is very supportive around you.

Shawn O'Hara: Yeah, you have a very nice building on Quadra. Langford does the one-time business license. That's it. But Saanich bills you, yeah, some municipalities do.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: I think it's about a hundred bucks a year.

Shawn O'Hara: Oh, wow. Mine was a hundred bucks for as long as I'm in business. Can you share a story where any of the regulatory compliance directly impacted a treatment plan or a patient outcome?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: I think the biggest one right now is there's a lot of, like ICBC, WorkSafe BC, the Athletics Commission, they don't accept us. Although I don't want more paperwork, if you want to save a lot of lineups at the walk-in clinic, about, I think it's like a third or 50% of the doctor's job is just paperwork. And that's what is taking up a lot of time. I mean, if you give us the ability, we can do physical exams, we're trained in it, and maybe you want to set us up a course so that you are confident that we're trained to do physical exams, to look for the things that are important for whichever. I don't know if we need extra training in that, but we're pretty good at them because we have the time to do full exams all the time. To be able to sign off for physicals for people that want to keep their license or that need to go back to work. Or, I had a gentleman, that's what I know about the Athletics Commission is because he was an MMA fighter who wanted to fight and he needed a physical signed off by a doctor and he needed lab work to make sure he didn't have any infectious disease. It just said physician. I'm like, well, does naturopathic physician count? They said, you can run the labs for them, but you can't do the physical exam. Like, what do you want to know? I know this guy for three years, versus a walk-in clinic doctor that just met the guy, like, what do you need me to look for? That's a big barrier. And although I don't want more paperwork to do, we could really help the health system by opening up some of those doors for us.

The other one is doing the travel vaccines or people coming in from other countries that need their health physical so that they can stay in the country or they can go to school. Currently not allowed to do that. So those are big blocks for people. Yeah, it's private pay, but I think if I was a student coming here and wanting to go to school and I had a couple days to hand this thing in, if I had to pay a couple hundred bucks to get that all done right now from a naturopath, then great. The other big one was before I knew we could do x-rays and ultrasounds, I had a patient who had something funny with her knee and she went to see her doctor and her doctor said, oh, it's arthritis.

And she came back to me and said, the doctor just wrote it off as arthritis. I know it's not arthritis. I said, okay. Well, I know a chiropractor that's got an x-ray and they have a system where they can get these certified chiropractic radiologists to take a look at it. So a couple hundred bucks, we sent the referral for the x-ray at the chiropractic clinic. We got it fully interpreted by a chiropractic radiologist, no arthritis. But she had a bunch of other findings. So she had the injury, saw the doctor a couple days later, saw me a week later, got the x-ray that week, the interpretation and all the results back. Within three weeks, she had the MRI. Within five or six weeks of that, she had an appointment with a specialist for her knee. So we were able to really speed things up for her. Another case, I had a patient who came in and he was very uncomfortable. There was something seriously wrong with him. He was very constipated. Everything, all the physical exam stuff I did, all the labs weren't really pointing towards his gut. Something wrong with his kidneys or his urinary system or something. It wasn't his prostate, but there was something going on in that area and I didn't know what it was. He was very averse to the medical system. I said, this is the time we need the medical system. You have to go get an ultrasound of your kidneys and bladder. And he goes, okay. So he goes to a walk-in clinic finally after trying to get in and call the urgent care center, because you have to be right at eight o'clock and hopefully you're the first one to answer. He finally got in after a week of calling and waiting, they saw the doctor. The doctor said, oh, you're constipated.

You need a colonoscopy. And had to wait another three weeks for this colonoscopy. I said, no, it's not a colon, no, it's in the urinary system. Go back. I wish I could just give you the ultrasound. So of course the colonoscopy came back negative, but the report said there's something bulging into the bowel. You might need an ultrasound. He got the ultrasound, he had a massive bladder tumor, and it took six weeks to figure out. I could have had it done if I could write, if I knew or if I had the system in place to write the ultrasound. We would have had it done that same week. I saw him, maybe saved him six weeks.

Shawn O'Hara: Because that's a lot more time to grow for that growth and a lot more pain and so on.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: So I think it's good now that we have a scope of practice open. But even though in that case I knew that's what he needed, well, I was pretty sure that's what he needed. I still was not confident with it.

Shawn O'Hara: So if naturopaths and chiropractors had a lot more of that, let's say, I guess ability and permission and training, it could really alleviate the main healthcare system. Or what the medical doctors are doing.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Yeah, it's one of the biggest misconceptions too, is that we're not evidence-based, but we are.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: We know conventional medicine, we're not just looking at, oh, you better go gluten free. We have to make sure we rule out all the real conventional stuff first before we start throwing out functional things. What's nice is most people have already done it, and the people that we see have already done all the conventional stuff. They rule out all the big, bad, scary things, and then they come in and here's all my labs, here's all my imaging, here's my symptoms. They got nothing for me. How can you help me?

And then we get to do our cool naturopathic stuff. But sometimes we have people coming in and we're the first person we're seeing and we have to, yeah.

Shawn O'Hara: So it could go either way. Either they're stumped because they've done what they can, or they probably heard from a friend or a contact who said, you have to start with a naturopath right away. Do you offer BioFlex low level laser therapy involving a laser? Sounds like there would be some kind of compliance. So first, what is that? How, what does it treat and what are all the compliance and regulatory considerations?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Low level laser therapy is kind of becoming, and they're changing the names of triple LT. They're calling it photobiomodulation because it's about how light can change the physiology. We have proteins in our body that respond to light and also respond to the immune system.

When the immune system's active, it tends to want to shut down activity. It shuts down activity, it inhibits proteins that are responsible for activity, but those proteins are also photosensitive. Ideally, when the immune system comes in, it shuts things down.

Kind of like police, walling off a cul-de-sac. Maybe you have one house that's in trouble. There's a hostage situation, so the police shut it down. The neighbours stay away from your doors and your windows. They lock the street off, right. Ideally, they deal with the perpetrator and then they clean everything up and everyone can go back as normal within a short period of time.

Maybe they knocked over your lawn gnome and scarred up your grass as an analogy for scarring or leaving a bit of damage. Where laser therapy really helps is imagine you have a hostage situation. The police come in, they wall everything off, and do nothing. Everything's locked down. Everything's still in trouble. But nothing's happening. It's just stagnant, stuck there. That's how sometimes people get stuck in this stagnant inflamed state. What the laser therapy does is it tells those molecules that are being inhibited by the immune system to turn on again, do your job. So it's essentially giving resources to the police or your immune system. It's giving resources to the damaged tissue. It's giving resources to the neighbor to defend themselves, to rebuild and get the job done and get out. So that's what the red light's doing. It's giving resources to the cells to finish that inflammatory process and resolve it. For us, we have to have regular training. We have to be certified in the tool that we're using. We have to be confident and competent in doing it. That's part of being a practitioner. If you're not comfortable doing something or you're not trained in doing something, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

It's proper evidence-based medicine. The unit itself has to go through Health Canada approvals. I know from the first and second unit, because we have two units now. The first unit, you said all kinds of conditions. Oh, this will treat the dermis and this will treat the joint and this will treat the muscle. This will treat headaches and this will treat fibromyalgia. When the second one came around and it was getting approved, they said, no, no, no. You can't say it treats that. You can't say it treats that. You can say it helps with muscles and you can say it helps with that. So Health Canada kind of restricted the indications for the laser on the system, which is interesting. So there's a bit of regulation on their side. There are different classes of laser, and the class of laser that we have is a Class 3B, which is considered a cold laser. It doesn't make a lot of heat. The surgical lasers that you'd use for cosmetics or surgery are what we call hot lasers, and there's so much energy in it.

Instead of burning and demolishing the tissue, vaporizing the tissue with the hot laser. It can be the same wavelength sometimes in the red spectrum, but at a lower level. Instead of vaporizing the tissue, it just stimulates it a little bit, gets it moving, which is cool.

Shawn O'Hara: Not the pain or the heat.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Yeah, there's no pain or heat. The Class 4 laser, which is also an approved kind of low level laser, its wavelength also hits water. Water absorbs a lot of red light, the class 4 lasers can heat up water really fast. So you can only hold it for about 10 seconds per spot. I don't like the idea that I could potentially burn someone by heating up the water in the tissue.

It's not even a target I want. I want to get the actual proteins.

Shawn O'Hara: Sounds like a bad science fiction movie.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Yeah, we chose the BioFlex for the fact that it's a Class 3B, but also it's got some LED therapy on there too, which I never really trusted if it worked or not. But after nine years of using it, it definitely works. It definitely does things for certain conditions.

Shawn O'Hara: For treatment, do people, do you put a lead line suit on them or masks or what precautions, I guess, do you or the patient have?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: We have special safety glasses that block the laser light. The laser itself only turns on when you touch the skin. So there's very small chance that we could cause any sort of eye damage. The LEDs, you don't really need eye protection from, unless you're really close up to the head. Even if you put eye protection on, the light is so penetrative, red light goes through your skin. Red is so penetrative, you'll see the red light shining through your skull, behind your eyeballs. That's how bright it is. You couldn't put anything on top of your eyes if you're putting an LED on the head for, say, a concussion. So you could try to block out the light, but you won't be able to.

Shawn O'Hara: Must be a weird effect.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Really strange. The two units I have, they're pads. I have a flexible pad that you can put around the neck and it's a lot comfier. Then I have a harder flexible pad that we use for the LED. The laser itself is a pen-like thing. It's about a centimeter. We can focus in on certain tissues.

Shawn O'Hara: Neat. Yeah, that's interesting. So you're very hands on. Can people, like any listeners that are outside of Greater Victoria, do you offer any kind of remote treatment or consultation?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: There's a rule that we both have to be in BC at least for the initial visit. Say you're from BC but you go to Italy and you need a, I don't know if I can, I don't think I can refill a medication if you're in Italy. I might be able to give you a little bit of advice if you're somewhere else just to help a bit. Ideally you're in the same city, in the same province. I have an in-office rule that I like to have those initial visits in office first before we start doing virtual stuff, because I don't know how you're supposed to do doctoring without a good physical exam. Half my mystery cases were solved because I actually touched someone, like their skin, found out that they're hypermobile because of the velvety skin or watching them breathe.

So part of the abdominal exam is getting them to take a breath, and they're not breathing with their abdomen, they're breathing with their chest, and you're wondering why they're stressed. There are a lot of little nuance things that we can see, or maybe they might have a mole in a place they didn't know they had, or we can do hip alignment assessments and that sort of stuff.

There's a shortage here on the island of medical doctors and it's rare to have a physical exam.

So I'll write a note saying, I heard something funny at the, I'll say it's like a S-1 S-2 pansystolic murmur under the second interspace, the right left inter second interspace. So it's a listing for a heart murmur. They go to their doctor and say, the naturopath felt this, and the doctor goes, oh, okay.

And starts doing all the physical heart exam stuff that he hasn't done in years. It's kind of cool that we can get them to that stuff. So.

Shawn O'Hara: That's a good prompting. So really somebody for more optimal health could use both or would use both.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Yeah, you have to have a medical doctor. I'm not a replacement for that. I'm not a natural medical doctor. I'm not a replacement, I'm not a natural version of one. I am a completely different approach.

You still need to have a medical doctor. There are things that they can do that I can't, they have knowledge that I don't have. They have abilities that I don't have.

Shawn O'Hara: Well, thank you. As we wrap up, how can people contact you?

Dr. Kyle Maynard: We have a website. It's horizons holistic health.com. We have a bunch of practitioners here. We have a great colleague, Dr. Michelle. She focuses big in women's health and autoimmune conditions, and she's doing some great work over there. We have a chiropractor who doesn't do the crack. She does some of the very gentle maneuvers. I sent her a migraine patient the other day and one adjustment, no more migraines. I'm like, is this real? You don't even adjust the neck. How do you get rid of migraines?

That was fantastic. We have an acupuncturist now who's doing great work in the trauma realm. When people have that language of traditional, you know, one of the things I picked up on a patient was they're waking up between three and five in the day, and three and five in traditional Chinese medicine is lung time and the lung is the organ that represents grief. I said, what is it that you haven't resolved? The patient just bursts out. I said, okay, we need you to see the acupuncturist and see if she can help you unblock this lung meridian. One treatment, she's sleeping. I couldn't believe it. I'm like, well that's cool. It's nice to be able to understand all these different languages of medicine. So we have a great team here. There are lots of options and I'm always happy to have a chat with anyone if they want to do a meet the doctor, and always available to do that for free.

Shawn O'Hara: Great, thank you. My guest today has been Dr. Kyle Maynard from Horizons Holistic Health Clinic here in Victoria, and thank you so much for being on my podcast today.

Dr. Kyle Maynard: Oh, thanks for having me.

Shawn O'Hara: And that's a wrap.

Links

Horizons Holistic Health Clinic: www.HorizonsHolisticHealth.com

Phone/Fax: 250-800-1220

Unit 401, 3939 Quadra Street, Victoria, BC V8X 1J5

• College of Complementary Health Practitioners of BC (CCHPBC)
• BCND (British Columbia Naturopathic Doctors Association)
• CAND (Canadian Association of Naturopathic Doctors)
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